Dr. Matthew Cook, the founder of BioReset Medical, is one of the most cutting-edge doctors I’ve come across. He’s a board-certified anesthesiologist with 20+ years of experience in medical practice, who — as he shares in this conversation — pivoted his practice toward functional and integrative medicine and has emerged a leader in stem cells, regenerative medicine, and psychedelic trauma therapy.
In this conversation, we discuss everything from functional medicine, to the specialized use of ketamine to treat anxiety, depression, trauma and PTSD, what is the biology and psychology of the moments that trigger us (and how to re-wire those triggers), and how we can start scaling these interventions beyond the individual level to groups and companies, and how to think about creating your life.
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In this episode, we mentioned the following resources:
- Dr Matthew Cook (@BioResetMedical)
- Andrew Weil
- Functional medicine
- Integrative medicine
- Psycholytic therapy
- Limbic system
- Dr. Mark Hyman
- Ulcer bacteria story
- TransTech Conference
- Bad Science
- “Studying Studies” by Peter Attia
- The Drive – podcast by Peter Attia
Transcripts may contain a few typos. With some episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can be difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!
Andrew 00:00:55 Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for being here today. How are you?
Matt 00:02:02 I’m doing wonderful. I’m delighted to be here. Thanks.
Andrew 00:02:04 One of the things that I thought was be an interesting way to start this off is a way I heard you describe a big shift in your life, which is that, you know, as, as a doctor, you spent the first significant chunk of your career. You used to knock people out, but now you wake them up. Tell me what that means to you.
Matt 00:02:21 My first half of my career, I was an anesthesia. I am an anesthesiologist. And so what I would do is I would basically knock people out a hundred percent by giving them general anesthesia or else I would do nerve blocks and then give them sedation and then guide them through surgeries. And so we were, that was basically what I did. And then now, uh, I’m using the same techniques that come from the anesthesia world to try to physiologically turn people’s brains on and, and, uh, reset the body, which is why my company is called bio reset.
Andrew 00:02:56 What happened for you? Like what was, was there a triggering event for you that what caused you to make that shift in your own life?
Matt 00:03:03 I had always wanted to do integrative medicine. And yet you go, um, did you go to a medical as medical school? And this is a gigantic institution. And so then you’re, you’re you sort of go on to different services and each service has an identity and kind of a consciousness to it. Okay. So, um, and, and it’s when you go onto a service you’ll, you’ll show up and so you show up in surgery. And so they’re all kind of crazy and super hardworking and wonderful, but, and so then you’ll you relate to them? You’re like, Oh, I don’t think I want to be like this. Cause it’s just, and so then you’re going to family medicine, you relate to them and you go to psychiatry. So you’re floating around. And when I got, and I, I was, I had the wool pulled over my eyes a little bit because I went into anesthesia and they were by far the coolest people in the hospital,
Andrew 00:04:04 The context like w w w help me locate at this in time. Like, is this when you’re in med school? Is this afterwards?
Matt 00:04:10 Where are we? This is one time in medical school. I’m in med. So this is 1997, six 97. Okay. So you’re in the middle of med school, I’m in the middle of med school and it’s it’s, um, the anesthesiologists are like lights out, the coolest, nicest people, and they seem totally calm. And so, and I was thinking, and so I’m thinking, Hey, uh, these guys are like, by far, what seemed like super happy, wonderful people, they’re my people. And so that I’m gonna evolve into being super calm like them. And what I found out is that basically it’s just a total facade because inside it’s like, you’re, you’re dealing with this, this anesthesiologist who was influential to me when I was young, uh, Peter said, what you have to do is, uh, internalize all of the chaos in the room and then project call. Okay.
Matt 00:05:15 So then like, whether, whether it’s with the patient or whether it was with the surgeon or the nurses, all of that is, and so we’re, we sort of orchestrated, um, the environment. It would make everything. Okay. And so part of that is being a psychiatrist for them. A little bit, part of that is just dieting and being supportive and wise and thoughtful. And so it’s, and so the next thing I know I’m doing anesthesia and it’s like, this is super dangerous. And so I was sort of wishing that I had done, I had gotten deeper into the integrated medicine. I was like, God, I made a mistake, but I was getting amazing at procedural skills and injection. So, um, and, but I realized I wanted to really have that deep dive in integrated medicine. So I started, I started like the month I got out of residency, I started studying. And so I studied acupuncture and I studied Chinese medicine and I studied at her Veda and I studied Joka and Tishi and all of this stuff, and ended up getting a doctorate and medical, she gone. And so I thought I was gonna at some point exit anesthesia and be like, kind of a integrative Andrew wild type of character.
Andrew 00:06:34 So it’s really quick just for anyone who’s not familiar with that term. What does integrative medicine mean? Like what does, if I put a little air quotes around?
Matt 00:06:41 Uh, that’s a great, that’s a great question because I think it means very different things to different people, but I think it’s, um, incorporating some of the best techniques of Western medicine and then an amalgamation of good ideas that come from many of those other places. I discussed Chinese medicine. I evade a, um, there’s a lot of wisdom in natural, uh, in homeopathy. And so there are integrative strategies try to put together the best, the best of both of those, the best of East and West, I would say
Andrew 00:07:21 A lot of, in a lot of ways, what that saying or what you’re doing when you take that approach is you’re just being like the ultimate learner. And you’re just looking at any anywhere, right. You’ll go to anywhere for what will work, what will help patients. And you’re willing to sort of figure out how to integrate it all together to make a difference.
Matt 00:07:37 Yeah, that’s really, really good. Yeah. That’s great.
Andrew 00:07:41 It’s so interesting. Cause like one of the things that surprised me in a really pleasant way as I was getting ready for this conversation, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t realize that you had done so much work in the world of like pro sports, you know, all the work you did with the nationals. For example, maybe you can talk about that. But the reason I thought it was especially interesting is,
Matt 00:07:57 Is that, um, you know,
Andrew 00:07:59 I would not have assumed an anesthesiologist would have spent so much time thinking about movement, for example. And I just thought it was interesting how you’ve gone far a field and you’ve like turned, you’ve left the DOE the boundaries of the, of your chosen domain. So to speak in order to find these things out, I’m curious, like how do you approach that? How do you approach that as a learner, like going outside your discipline to find the answers in spaces where you don’t know the, you don’t know what’s going on. This is
Matt 00:08:25 Self research is a self funded research project that has typically been trying to solve my own problems. Okay. Say more about that. So then what happened is I was, um, and so then is as my early bed kind of 1.0, of kind of, uh, evolving away from anesthesia. Cause I felt immediately like, Oh, I’m just facilitating surgeries that I kinda don’t always believe in. And so, so then we were doing yoga and Tai Chi and all of these things. And, and once you start to do that, then we started setting kinda chains and how forest moves through the body. And, and then once you start to do that, then I started this deep dive into looking at musculoskeletal physiology because we were basically trying to, uh, fix problems. I’m saying, if you could fix, like I had some backstop and I had some knee stuff and I had a shoulder stuff, next stuff, short things from planks for this grab bag of pain, I grabbed bag of pain.
Matt 00:09:34 And so then I was, and so I, you wouldn’t believe how many things. So we went into, um, you know, I, I studied, uh, Indian clubs. We were doing strength training. So we were doing all this stuff and, uh, and in an effort to kind of improve how force flows through the body. And then once you can have it start to flow more efficiently and functionally through the body, uh, those are the same goals that you would have, whether you’re a Tai Chi expert or a pro athlete or a weekend warrior, we’re just trying to get for us and energy to flow efficiently through the body. So then, um, I happened to go to a meeting where people were teaching hydrodissection, which is this technique where you put fluid around nerves and do injections, uh, to fix pain. And so I showed up there and then I called my friend Barb, and I was like, you’re not going to believe it. I found out what I’m going to do for the rest of my life.
Matt 00:10:41 And I, because I had been doing ultrasound guided injections all day, every day for like 10 years. And so then I CA I went to a meeting. I was like, Oh, I know more than I provided care about this. Like, this is what we’re going to do. And then we’re just going to wrap functional medicine around a physiological approach to the body. So then that’s basically what I’ve done. Is there a difference between functional medicine and integrative medicine? There’s just massive overlap. And so functional medicine is that is a term that is used for a thoughtful approach to, um, talking to people, gathering kind of a, a real nice, uh, robust history and then doing a whole bunch of testing. So for example, like what we were talking about on the phone, testing, your vitamin D level testing, testing a whole bunch of things, and then putting all of that together and correlating it with the symptoms and then creating treatment algorithms to support people. And many of those treatment algorithms can be integrative, but then many of those are just straight, normal Western medicine approach.
Andrew 00:11:54 Yeah. That’s so interesting. Yeah. I think the way you explained it to me or that I’ve heard you explained it before was it’s kinda like being a McKinsey consultant as opposed to like just a specialist, right. You’re kind of taking the systems level view in integrating across various subsystems in the body to just solve the problem. Uh, you know, as opposed to saying, Nope, I just deal with, you know, knees.
Matt 00:12:14 Exactly, exactly. And that, that is how grid organizations are doing things in the world right now. Um, taking a systems approach, uh, that’s the best when medicine at its best, it takes, takes a systems approach,
Andrew 00:12:32 The systems type approach to solving problems in any domain, whether that’s business or medicine or just life is very appealing. Right. It seems sort of intuitively appealing, but a lot of people don’t know how to do it. So I’m curious if you could tell, tell me a story or tell me about a time when you coached, let’s say you had a doctor who was coming from more, a more traditional approach to medicine, more of a siloed type approach. How do you cope? How have you coached that type of person to learn, to see and think sort of systemically the way you’re describing?
Matt 00:12:59 Oh, that’s a good one. That’s a good one. That’s basically, I spent like two hours talking to people yesterday, trying to figure out how I could do that. Better. Part of that is giving people really good protocols because then, because everybody’s sort of, it’s interesting. Everybody wants a protocol, which is the opposite of systems thinking,
Andrew 00:13:23 Right. Cause our protocol and this sentence is like, just tell me what to do. Right. Just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do. So I don’t have to think about it.
Matt 00:13:29 I don’t have to think about it. And so then people really want that doctors want that patients want that and just tell me what to do and I’m going to do it. And yet, uh, we’re trying to constantly nuance and, and think broader and bigger terms. And, and so, uh, and then, so, and so a lot of that, a lot of what I do is I just basically I’ll do it for people. People will come and I’ll all talk them through. We’ll, we’ll do cases. And then we’ll go back into another room and talk about it and I’ll be like, well, what did you think about that? And it’s, uh, and, and medicine and medicine is an art. And then when, and if you go back to when I first did this, it’s like, it’s a very collaborative kind of interesting experience when you’re in systems, because that’d be like we would sit down on a small group of five or six people and then work our way through this case of this 75 year old lady that comes in with ammonia, let’s say, and that would be different today than if it was back then.
Matt 00:14:36 And so then you’re, you’re constantly evolving and sort of socializing between everybody who’s working on that. And that’s, that’s interestingly how medicine and the best of times happens, because for example, in, in there’s grand rounds or a tumor board when there’s really complex patients. And so then a group of people will step and kind of process that together. And, uh, I think when I’m at my best, I’m talking to a bunch of people with different areas of domain knowledge, and then putting that together in, in, in, in the most logical way and thoughtful, thoughtful what,
Andrew 00:15:23 Yeah, it seems like one of your real strengths, just as I’ve listened to you on other other interviews you’ve done and, and Washington talks you’ve given, it seems like you have a real strength for, uh, I’ll say synthesizing. So like synthesizing large swaths of disparate material in, into it, like distilling it down into like a cogent coherent hole and putting handles on it so that people can actually get it, grab it and do something with it.
Matt 00:15:47 Oh, thank you. That’s like the only thing that I want to do in my life actually,
Andrew 00:15:53 Well, you’re doing a good job. So there you go. So, you know, it’s a curious, I want to go back to a point in time. So you described just a few minutes ago, you were saying something that like right after you finished your residency. Right. And you’re, you’re kind of getting into the world of anesthesia and you have this like, Oh, shit moment where you’re like, uh, Oh, uh, I’m in the wrong game. And I’m curious like that. That’s such, those moments are so scary, but they’re also so transformative. And like, those are a real watershed moments in our life. And I’m curious if you could just talk to me a little bit about how you navigated that. Right. We were talking right before we hit record about the idea of creating your life and the fact that it’s sort of this act of choice. And I’d love to hear about how you approach that because that’s, that type of moment happens to everybody and it’s scary.
Matt 00:16:36 Okay. So then I’ll actually take you back a little bit before that. Okay. So the time when I was going to go into medicine, if you look at any kid right now, this is senior in college, or they’re pretty mad. Uh, what you want is you want to make a contribution, contribution to mankind and do something great. You, and you’d like to do some research. You want to have a clinical experience where you take care of patients because taking care of patients is like this, the most gratifying part of it. And so you want to put in B, you want to, you want to basically construct all of that together. And that is the ultimate dream of being a doctor. Oh, and you, and then you want to teach so fundamental. And so then at academic centers, you see these guys that are like these, they teach a couple of days a week, they’ve got a clinic one or two days a week, and then they’re there in a lab doing research.
Matt 00:17:34 And so then these are the great and profound teachers that are impacting mankind. And it’s like the ultimate dream of being a physician. So I wanted to do that with my whole arm console. And in fact, then I thought, I said to myself, rather than go down the academic road, I’m going to do it. The, the clinical private practice it does wear off and you make more money there. And so that was, it was part of the appeal. And I said, then what I’ll do is I will, I’ll have more flexibility to control and navigate what I do. And then I’m going to figure out how to do research and teach and then have the ultimate dream of being a doctor that does everything and then make a meaningful impact. I love it then fast forward after a couple of years, and I’m working in the surgery center and I realized that I’m in a role and I’m trapped in the role and it doesn’t seem like there’s a way to get out.
Matt 00:18:34 And every year that you go, it seems harder and harder to get out. And then you get dependent on a lifestyle. And so then I, I felt like six, sure. Seven years ago, the probability that I was going to make it out was like 10%. And I, and I was like, I remember, uh, this friend of mine, uh, who surgery center. I has this guy, who I love, uh, uh, I was working at a surgery center and, and he said, here’s the thing, just do this thing that you’re going to do. And then come into the, and you can do my cases and do you do half the cases of the surgery center and then get your new business going, and then it’ll be great. And then, uh, once you get that going, I go shrunk. I go, I’m either gonna die or I’m going to do this.
Matt 00:19:34 And there’s nothing in between. And that was crazy. She looked at me just like you. And then he goes, yeah. Okay. Okay. There’s nothing else to say. But I was doing, I was doing the integrative medicine and America wasn’t really ready for integrative medicine at that time. What year was this from? Essentially 1998 until like six years ago. Okay. So it’s like 2014 ish. Yeah. And it was, I, it was even like, I ran into a bunch of anesthesiologists the other day at dinner, but right before quarantine and they go cook, you were right. Like a, what they wrote remit, mercilessly made fun of you for being gluten free, but then it turns out everyone is like, so, but so then what, but what happened is once I figure it out that, and I had always told myself this story, cause I heard this story about two people who were lawyers who wanted to change their career.
Matt 00:20:41 And I heard it, I think, on Tim Ferris. And it was interesting cause I started to Tim Ferriss years ago and I was like, and he gave me the hope that I was gonna get, be able to get free. But the story was that there was this one lawyer. And so she, she opened up a yoga studio and then this other, they both hated their job. And then there’s this other lawyer who became this expert in the super narrow thing of import export legal stuff. So then what happened is he got the things that everybody wants, which is autonomy, money and respect. And then basically she moved into a commoditized market where she wasn’t able to get the respect she wanted because she’s just like an average yoga teacher. And so the whole thing ends up not paying off. And so for me, what happened as I started doing all of these nerve treatments and fixing peripheral nerve pain and back pain and stuff like that, that was super derivative of, of what I’d already been doing for 15 years.
Matt 00:21:46 But it was just like a, uh, uh, a modified approach. And so that, that allowed me to sort of like be who I am within my medical practice. And, um, it’s like the greatest thing of all time. Like I, and, and even, even now, like I had an, an I, I said, I finally have started to make contact with anesthesiologists because I had one fly and, and I trained him for two days this week. And they’re so easy for me to train. Cause they already know like the, how to be sterile and how to do, do injections. They’ve already got all this stuff, like fine. Yeah. So then I, I, I was awesome because next thing you know, he’s following me around and picking stuff up and, and, and doing things. And I was like, if this is going to be so easy and then, and then, and so then what happens is I I’m ecstatic. Cause I realized he’s going to be free. Like I’m literally like going into the matrix and unplugging him like Neo and then like, he’s going to be afraid and he’s going to go do whatever he’s going to do. That’s kind of cool.
Andrew 00:23:05 You said something really, really powerful, but you said it so casually that I have to go back to it, which is, you said something like when you’re doing this, you find that you feel like you’re finally getting to, to, you know, be who you are. And what’s, I’m curious when my experience, there’s always like a moment or a kind of moment. That is what gives rise to people saying something like that. And I’m curious when you think about that moment, that has you like where you just click in and you go like, yeah, this is, this is me. This is my moment. What’s that moment for you.
Matt 00:23:35 Okay. So, uh, my friend, uh, Jesse told me this one and which is interesting. She goes, when, when you start to eat, she goes in life. What you’re going to do is you’re going to start to attract patients and fundamentally the patients that you attract all have the same problems that you have, but you’ve just sort of, you’ve either fixed your problems or you’re very well on your way to fixing them. And so then you have some problem is like 95% fixed. And so then it’s like, if you had that problem and it was only 10% fixed, that would be like, Oh, I’ve totally got you because I figured that out. And, and so, um, and so then for me, what happened is all of a sudden I spent from the time that I was 16 until now trying to fix a bunch of stuff like the back and the knees and the shoulder and all this stuff.
Matt 00:24:38 And I remember like, uh, sitting with a journal and S when I was 17 saying, this has gotta be the Euro, the legs, I’m going to go do squats Jack. And it’s going to be amazing. And then I hurt, I got hurt. And so then I was like, Oh God. And so then, but then what happened is next thing, you know, we started fixing all this stuff. And so then now I walk around at clinic and it’s like, I see these things. I was like, Oh, I used to have that. And then, so that, and I it’s like, it’s like almost ecstatic for me because I realized, Oh, I know how to fix that. And so then I’ve just loved doing it. And then the, the, maybe the most interesting thing is that I think like a huge percentage of anesthesiologists kind of have, are running about like 20% PTSD all the time, just because it’s so unbelievably stressful, because like, you meet some 75 year old grandmother and you’re doing some surgery for her and you appropriately managed everything and got everything prepared.
Matt 00:25:49 But then all of a sudden she starts to having arrhythmia, which is like an irregular heartbeat, which those genre things happen all the time. But if you meticulously manage it, then you can fix it right away. And so I had thousands and thousands of times where there was a problem, and then I fixed it. And if I was so sort of super, super focused and rich, I spent every second trying to do, then you never have any problem, but you’re living with the fear of that problem. You’re always waiting for that shoe to drop. And so, uh, and so those moments of terror sort of drive you into being stuck a little bit on, in a fight or flight state. And, um, and so then a huge part of my early practice was then just healing all of that stuff. And it turns out everything that we do is like quite helpful for that.
Matt 00:26:48 And when I was in medical school, I remember these guys, they were like, Hey, don’t go into like, don’t go. It’s kind of like walking around the VA. They’re like, Oh, don’t go take care of, do anything and PTSD. Cause they never get better. Yeah. That was the conversation that was like going on among the doctors. And so then if you’re having that conversation going on, then when you start to get a lot of PTSD, then you’re thinking, Oh, but I w I learned in medical school that they never get better. So I’m totally screwed. That’s the existential, um, axed then of an anesthesiologist because you you’re, you’re at, I ran into an anesthesiology friend of mine and he goes, the problem is, is that you get re-exposed to the same potential,
Andrew 00:27:41 Oh, trigger every single morning,
Matt 00:27:43 The morning you go back to work and you meet someone and then you do anesthesia for them, and then it’s super dangerous. And then yet, somehow you magically get through it, but they’re, you’re, you’re afraid because you, you remember this one time last year or two years ago, or whenever it was when something almost happened. And so you’re continuing. So, uh, so we, we do a lot in the PTSD wellness front, which is the joy of my life, because I feel like, uh, that and musculoskeletal and infectious disease, I think are the three areas that I’m going to make some real impact. I think.
Andrew 00:28:30 So I want to actually switch gears here and start to talk about that a little bit, because I know you’re kind of one of the, one of those guys out in the forefront of this type of work, right. In terms of treating you the way you described it to me, was that your clinic, you basically see two to two kind of categories of patients, you know, bucket one is somebody who’s very much in the like human performance and optimization camp where, you know, it’s a total biohacker or the high net worth individual or something like that, where they’re really just trying to get everything possible out of what they’ve got to work with. But then there’s this other camp of like, you know, cases that everybody else thinks are hopeless. And that’s really kind of what you’re speaking to. And you’ve had really amazing success. They’re working with a variety of therapies, including Academy. And I was talking to them, talk to me a little bit about that. Like, you know, in particular, the thing that I, you had said to me before that I’d love to hear you talk about it a little more is you mentioned to me how it’s such a, there’s almost like this massive societal ROI or a huge yield on like being able to reset our most vulnerable people. And that’s, I think exactly what you’re speaking to you right now,
Matt 00:29:31 Academy is an amazing way to help people. And it’s, uh, it’s, you could, you could do something profound to help the most disadvantaged people. Ketamine is as an anesthesia drug that I’ve been using as to help, uh, because it’s, it’s good for pain relief and it’s, it’s a great, uh, it’s a great component of an anesthetic. So I’ve been using it for patients, um, for 20 years, but it turns out, uh, it can be very helpful for people with drug resistance, depression, and PTSD, and it’s a mild psychedelic, but then it has this term I’ve been using, it’s called psycholytic. And so if there’s an emotional trigger and someone’s on ketamine, that emotional trigger can go from like a eight or a 10 to a zero. And because you remember everything that happens in that experience, you’re able to sort of process the fact that this thing that I was like really wired up about all of a sudden turns into total calm.
Matt 00:30:41 And so then I’m at, and we do it with therapy where we’ll be talking to people and they’re, they’re super frustrated about something. And then we’ll, and then next thing you know, they’re doing ketamine. And so then we say, Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think? How well, how you, and now normally you, that person would be, would be like, well, that’s not true for me, just like, it is just, you can imagine a million people you’ve met just like a snap response, including including probably ourselves. Right. For sure we all got them. And yet in that state people go, Oh, that’s a good idea. And so now the next thing, you know, you’re, you’re talking. So like my, my total favorite on this, and it’s kind of interesting cause my dad’s a psychologist. And, um, and that’s partly how I ended up in this whole thing.
Matt 00:31:38 Cause I went into that does make sense. I went into anesthesia kind of to avoid psychiatry because that was a joke in our family, the psychiatry didn’t work. And I see a lot of, uh, psychologists who come to see me who are in their sixties and seventies who were somewhat overwhelmed by the stress of the experience of their career. And then what we’ll do is, and, and I did this with my, with my dad actually also, which was like the greatest thing of all time for our relationship. And so then what happens is, um, we, we, um, process through stuff and it’s like all of a sudden you can talk about a bunch of things that before you didn’t think you could talk about. And if you can just, sometimes if you can just have a therapeutic conversation where you can kind of get that stuff off your chest and then you, you can see that there’s a trajectory for getting better. And that I think is the thing that happens with ketamine. And so then all of a sudden people were like, I think I’m actually going to be okay.
Andrew 00:32:53 So sort of like interviewing like a new it actually like they can see hope where there was done before. Right.
Matt 00:32:58 Right. Now the lack of hope was, was, uh, partly related to the fact that the emotional triggers were so profound that it didn’t allow them to see any, anything else. But then as the triggers go away, then you were kind of just like, Oh, Oh, that’s an interesting idea.
Andrew 00:33:21 So this, this idea of triggers is really fascinating, right? Because it’s something we all have. And everyone who has even an ounce of self awareness has experienced and notice themselves like wildly lose their shit over something that was like, they blown something way out of proportion. We’ve all done that. Um, but I’m super curious, like, could you, could you sort of in layman’s terms, explain a little bit about like, what is this link between our neurophysiology and our psychology? Like what is a trigger in our brain and like what is actually happening in the brain when you have, when you work someone through this Academy and treatment that allows what you’re describing is reframing to actually occur.
Matt 00:33:58 Okay. That’s a really, that’s a, that’s a great question. And I hope that I’m going to do justice to it. Um, we have our consciousness and our framework of how we create our identity and our structure of our preferences and, and who we are. Okay. Now then that’s intimately mapped into the Olympics system, but then the limbic system is emotions. And now interestingly, in the limbic system, I’m, I’ve had this new way that I’ve been thinking about this, which is that there is a motion
Andrew 00:34:39 It’s that are in rest and relax
Matt 00:34:42 Emotions. And then there are fight or flight emotions. Okay. So the fight or flight emotions are like fear and anger and worry and shame. And so then those are good emotions and super useful because if the house was on fire, I might need to use anchor to motivate somebody to do something, or I might have to. So, so, and we’ve been running through, through these emotions.
Andrew 00:35:11 Okay. Now then the rest in real life
Matt 00:35:12 That’s emotions are love, acceptance, gratitude, all the, all the touchy, feely good ones that we want to be all the warm fuzzies warm now then
Andrew 00:35:27 Is that our, our brain works is that our prefrontal cortex and all of our senses
Matt 00:35:33 Or mapping into this part of the brain called the amygdala, which is the or flight control center. And, um, when, if everything’s cool, like right now, so I was just like, great. And so then the whole brains on the brain wires into the hippocampus back here, which is like the memory part of the brain, and it’s, it’s contextualizing emotion, but it’s contextualizing cognitively what’s happening. And so we have this kind of robust, cool thing happening, but then if something comes up that insinuates that we’re not safe and that we might need to change our program to fight or flight, to get up and get out of here, then that can turn the fight or flight part on. And so we’re constantly modulating back and forth. Like heart rate variability is kind of a, a measure of how quickly you can go back and forth. So what should happen is something crazy, scary could happen.
Matt 00:36:32 And then, but we would realize that was the best gone now. And it was fun. It’s funny or whatever. And then we would just immediately switched back into the state. And that’s what happens with little kids. It’s like our default setting. That’s our default, I think our default setting is, is that, you know, you think about it a lot yet. That’s something crazy happens to them. And then, then like 10 minutes later, you’d be like, I can go take a nap and then they’ll go light on it. But if a real stressful thing happened to you, you’re not going to be able to go take a nap 10 minutes later. Yeah. Now what happens is there are topics that are, that are related to our consciousness and our construct, our identity of who we are. And if that gets triggered, then what it does is it triggers a fight or flight response.
Matt 00:37:22 And then that turns on the fight or flight emotions, which is like this anger, fear, shame. And so then all of a sudden that can totally derail you because then all of a sudden those emotions take over and become overwhelming and they start to take over the consciousness because what they’re doing is they’re taking their, this incredible powerful slavering to an idea. And so there’s that, yeah, that might be a good idea. But then if there’s a whole bunch of shame and worry and anger around that, it’s just like seems out of control. And, but, but then if the warm and fuzzy emotions are okay running around that idea, it might be like the greatest idea of all time. Right now, part of our construct of our ego and stuff is what you hear this term called the default mode network. What happens is re learning to rewire the brain so that you’re practicing, being more in control.
Matt 00:38:26 And so the, those triggers are often, if that’s true, then that, that says something about me that I don’t like, and that is worrisome because if that’s true, that means I’m not safe. And what happens is that happens so quickly that it leads to like a little bit of a Ridge response of like, cause you don’t want that to be true. And so then you’ll almost fight against fight, which paradoxically makes it true. And so then, so then what you have to do is sort of, as you start to defrag these, and then you start to realize that there’s like an entire universe inside here. And so then all of a sudden then it’s like I say, Oh, okay, guess what? My identity is McKenna interested in my identity, but it’s like evolving so quickly that like my identity at the end of this COVID thing is going to be different than it was now.
Matt 00:39:25 And so therefore, what if you said something that was like triggering that, that might be triggering to my identity now, but it may not be triggering to my future identity. Then this began becomes the sort of logic. And so then I go, Oh, okay, well, so that’s triggering to me now, but it’s not triggering to the me in the future. Okay. And so then, and so then if I’m able to work my way through a timeline and I realized, Oh, so then I don’t need to be triggered by it now. Okay. Yeah. Because I’m not super wired into like whatever my identity is. Like, let’s say you said. And so then what that allows you to do is to navigate through things and not be true to trigger to people disagree because you’re not threatened by the, by the fact that, uh, you’re not gonna feel safe. That’s the fundamental thing.
Andrew 00:40:17 Yeah. So let me, let me, let me just pause you for a second, make sure I’m with you. Let me try and recap that in, in layman’s terms. So what I think you’re saying, and please correct me where I’m getting this wrong. Is it there’s like kind of a multi-part system going on here, right. So there’s like the mental, I think you called it like an idea or a mental formation, right? There’s a concept in your mind. And then that concept has sort of like has wired in associations that trigger emotions to go along with it. Right. So they can be the idea of shame or an event that there’s a, there’s an event. And then that’s wired to the emotions of shame, for example. And that is sort of like kicking in. So event happens, that’s the trigger. It kicks off this entire cascading effect of emotions that takes over the nervous system off you go into fight or flight.
Andrew 00:41:02 And next thing you know, you don’t know what you don’t, you don’t even know what’s going on. And so it seems like what’s happening under, under the treatments that you all are creating is that you’re using assistive interventions, like ketamine, for example, which has a psychological and physiological effect of kind of like making you feel first of all, really safe. And so you feel safe. And then I think you, you also, I think in the research, I found that you’re also doing things like stellate, ganglion blocks to like turn off the fight or flight nervous system. And so it seems like you’re almost like using this intervention to go in like snip the wire, that’s linking this mental formation to an automatic response. So you can then kind of talk through and introduce a new linkage. Is that what’s going on?
Matt 00:41:43 Yeah, yeah. That is, that is exactly what’s going on. But then what I’m, my attitude is once you figure out how to do this, then you don’t need to do any of those other things. And so then like my greatest, the people that are like most influential to me are like artists and comedians and stuff like that. And so then like, what would happen is if Dave Chappelle or Jerry Seinfeld, like I’ve been watching a lot of them lately, if they saw something, they would just call that out. They’d be like, well, that’s crazy. And in a funny way, call out the behavior rather than getting triggered by it. Because as soon as you comment on it, that that takes all of the power away from it
Andrew 00:42:30 Because you’ve externalized it you’ve given language to it. It’s not you anymore. Yeah.
Matt 00:42:34 And so then this, this is like a practice and ketamine is just like some training wheels to kind of get somebody going or a silly gang. The block is like a hard reboot of like the central nervous system. But then once you kind of get going, then the issue is, is that there’s going to be a bunch of conversations like this that are like non triggering or it’s like, totally not triggering for me anyways. And so then that, but then there’s a bunch of other conversations that are slightly harder and then some that are very difficult.
Matt 00:43:09 And so then what happens is, is learning to navigate the difficult ones where you can call out like a comedian does, Oh, there Oh that he is true. That is starting to make me feel this way. And then if you can diagnose that happening real time, and then you can almost like, see yourself going into fight or flight. This is what I just started being able to do only like in the last six months and then go, Oh, okay. That I’m, I was triggered by that, but there’s like totally no reason for me to be triggered by that. Like I’ll generally, almost always realize. And that trigger is generally based on an idea that I picked up hook line and sinker from 10
Andrew 00:44:00 And years ago,
Matt 00:44:02 Or it was an idea that my parents had. And so I just bought that hook line and sinker,
Andrew 00:44:06 Yeah. Be carrying this thing around my whole life and didn’t even realize it
Matt 00:44:09 It’s that. And then that’s how, why I go to this timeline because then I go, okay, I’m triggered by this now, but that’s probably not even me. That’s just something that I picked up. So I’m probably going to let that go. Which means like, almost anything that I’m triggered by now, I’m guessing that I’m not going to be triggered by it in five years now it’d be, maybe I’ll be triggered by other things. Right. But then what happens is, is that it leads to this evolution of consciousness where next thing you know, you’re navigating, like, what I can, I can tell you is I’ve been super enjoying my life like a hundred times more than I’ve ever enjoyed it before. Kind of doing this
Andrew 00:44:49 Principle. This is so fascinating. And he he’s like, it’s like a shift in, in a mental formation under the right conditions can create these like radically cascading effects, neurologically, physiologically, and psychologically that, I mean, that’s, that’s just incredible. Like that’s like all bets are off kind of territory.
Matt 00:45:07 This is great. This is so great. So there’s a percentage of people who will show up and they’ll be like, you know what? I listened to everything and I know it to be true, but it’s just not true yet, but I know that I’m going to do everything and then I’m going to be okay. And then sure enough, they will be. Yeah. And then there’s another group of people that are in the, even in the end stage chronic pain, and then I’ll start to see them. And then they will also follow kind of the similar trajectory. Cause it’s, it’s getting your head wrapped around the idea that it’s like a, there’s a way to live this basically super easy and pleasant and wonderful. And then, and we were designed to be able to have the sirens start to go off if the house is on fire, but then we should be just basically having a great time, the rest of the time telling stories,
Andrew 00:46:04 Kicking it and enjoying ourselves. Yeah. That’s so fascinating. So one thing I’m curious about is like, cause what you were just describing there and a lot of ways you could, you could kind of, um, in the world of psychedelics, that’s often referred to as like set and setting, right. Like an intention, right? The way people approach something and their mental sort of where they’re at mentally, their intentions for doing it. And then literally like where they do it and does that make them feel safe and all that, it seems to have this huge effect, right? Like you were just describing, someone comes to you and they’re already like bought in. It’s going to go better than someone who’s like, Oh, I guess we’ll try it. Um, but do you have a, is there a sense that you fit you’ve picked up like why that actually makes such a difference? Like what is going on that, that, that concept, the presence of that concept makes such a difference.
Matt 00:46:52 Okay. So we’re hanging out right now. Everything’s mapping in and stuff. The set and setting is amazing. You’re, you’re turning the volume way up on warm and fuzzy. Okay. Okay. Now then the concept of, and then I could explain, I could go into any substance you want. I could go, I could talk to you through the physiology of it, but in broad terms, if you turn up the volume on warm and fuzzy, then that consciousness sort of sits on top of that. And so then that what’s going on in the limbic system then starts to massively influence consciousness because if you’re feeling warm and fuzzies, then you’re going to be having intellectual thoughts that have a warm and fuzzy vibe to them in parallel to that, the opposite is, is that if you’re in, if you’re set and settings chaos, then that’s driving the opposite consciousness,
Andrew 00:48:03 Right? Like the, the idea that the emotions, the emotions drive the thoughts just as much as the thoughts drive the emotion.
Matt 00:48:09 Yes. Yeah. And so now then the name of the game is then trying to figure out how to hack Mormon facilities and then connecting that to an idea of consciousness and an identity. And, um, so, so for example, like some of the psychedelics will, will sort of defrag the default mode network a little bit. And so it’ll, it’ll soft and, uh, our, our, our view of identity of ourselves and then make us way more open to connection to other people.
Andrew 00:48:48 So really quick, I just want to clarify two things. So default mode network for, for people who aren’t familiar and please correct me if I get this wrong, it’s kind of like when you’re doing nothing, that’s, what’s active in your brain, right. When you’re just like taking a walk, doing whatever, that’s the part of the brain that is sort of generally, um, on and dominant. Is, is that correct?
Matt 00:49:07 Yeah, I think that’s okay. And it’s also in a, it really relates to ego and our sense of, uh, of identity.
Andrew 00:49:15 So sort of self sort of self referential. It’s like the seat of the, of the identity and the ego. And so when, when you talk about defragging it, what does, defragging kind of mean in this context?
Matt 00:49:25 So, so then, so then like, there’s this question, like, who are you, right? And so then that’s like this, something that you can begin to explore. And so then as you start to explore and contextualize who you are, then all of a sudden you realize, Oh, maybe that’s who I was, but now that it’s, it becomes this evolving thing. And, and, and so I think meditation, mindfulness, yoga, breathing, uh, functional medicine, integrative medicine, regenerative as an, every, every technique that we have allows you to start to journey into, uh, continually recreating who you are and then how that relates to the entire nervous system. And then putting that together as, and then just being, being who you are. And most people are, I think are somewhat trapped in an identity that was created in the past, but they’re living it out. So that was why I felt, I think I was trapped by a decision that I made to go into anesthesia. And so that I was just like doing my entire identity was doing something it’s interesting. Like what happened to us? I was like triggered by things about like insurance and stuff like that.
Matt 00:50:56 But then what happened is then I left that behind. I don’t even, like, I’m not, I’m completely not triggered by it, but it’s like, because it’s not even on my radar screen of something that’s relatable to me. And so then that’s an example of, as soon as you start to evolve into the idea that you’re evolving, then that’s amazing because then you get to, now you can just take yourself wherever you want to go.
Andrew 00:51:25 That’s so fascinating. Cause it’s like I, so I’ve gotten, I’ve very interested in meditation and mindfulness and I started practicing like 13 years ago or something like that. And it’s been an incredibly fascinating journey for me. And just listening to you now, I’m starting to understand why it works. Even the idea you just described is the idea that the self, the idea of the self is just that it’s an idea. Right? And so it’s, shiftable in the same way. Any other idea is shiftable, which is just like it’s. So that’s so simple. It’s profound. I think it’s amazing. Like, you know, in your story, I hear you as someone who you are trapped in the concept of I’m an anesthesiologist, which is very, which is very different than I am someone who does anesthesiology, right? Like your identity was anesthesiologist, as opposed to, how do you conceive of that now, by the way, I’m curious, like, what is, what do you conceive of yourself as now, identity wise, since you’ve shifted from being like, you know, boxed in by the label anesthesiologist,
Matt 00:52:26 I’ll tell people like, I’m an anesthesiologist, like, I’ll say like, if, what kind of doctor you are, I always say I’m an anesthesiologist. Um, and yet, like, I think of myself as a, as a physician and I’m thinking to myself, it’s just trying to put together, trying to understand the human body basically, and soul. And, and so then, and, and, and then just like, and so the, the, and so the way that, and so you’re trying to understand the human body, you’re trying to understand consciousness. So that’s like the goal. And then just, and you hear about it, what are the, what do you call that? The practice of medicine? So it’s just a practice because like, whatever I did, as great as it was, is let’s just say probably not going to work for you because it’s, you’re, you’re special and unique, and I’ve got to figure it out all over again, because it’s the practice of medicine, because I’m just going to relate to you and we’re going to figure it out and then that’s going to be magical.
Matt 00:53:36 And so it’s the practice. Now, the practice of mindfulness and meditation is also kind of amazing because what that does is that pulls you a little bit out of the ego construct and kind of gets you calmer. And so then living your life as almost like a practice, like part of what I’m trying to do is just kind of get people to understand the reality that they’re going to be fine. Everything’s going to be okay. And then they can start to do this. And I always say, if I was good enough at what I’m trying to do, that I wouldn’t need to do Academy and our silly dangling blocks, right.
Andrew 00:54:12 Something like that. And I’m pretty sure
Matt 00:54:15 That what’s going to happen is there’s going to be like 10 people who listened to this podcast who kind of get it. And then they start to basically self re rewire the architecture of their central nervous system. And, and then next thing, you know, once you start to just run this program, it’s just like an amazing program and you’re going to be fine.
Andrew 00:54:38 It would be awesome if everybody had access to you or someone like you, unfortunately, not everyone does right now. And we’ll come back to the sort of societal ROI bit here in a second, but for someone who doesn’t, what could they do starting today to run this program?
Matt 00:54:54 I think what, what I think the thing is, is you’ve got to be easy on yourself because you’ve been w w whatever story that you bought or picked up is a story that was like, from you be picked up when you’re five from your P your parents says something, you bought it, hook, line, and sinker. And so then, so then you just gotta be easy on yourself. So if you get super triggered today, then, uh, then just give yourself a mole again and realize it’s going to be okay,
Andrew 00:55:25 I’m gonna get over it. And then as you start to get triggered, right.
Matt 00:55:29 Um, what I try to do is I try to be Jerry Seinfeld all the time in my mind. So I’m trying if I can, cause if I can call out the absurdity or the insanity of something, then that’s, then I’m definitely not going to be triggered. Never everyone else is going to laugh. So I try comedy, I think is like one of the most effective strategies and then suspending, disbelief, what I’ve noticed, something triggering is said. And then all of a sudden, the alarm bells start going off. Now, if this was a practice, then the idea is, is that when you start to see that coming towards you in slow motion, and you’re like, Oh, Oh, okay. So this was happening. And then I’m having these feelings so that I’m just kind of, kind of breathe without a little bit. And I’m going to suspend this belief.
Matt 00:56:27 I’m not gonna like go into that cause. And I’m just kinda like, okay, um, I’ve got a weight. And so then a lot of times I’ll sit. I’ll just like, sit for like even a minute. I was just being like, okay. And then just use, and then what will happen is often just that amount of time is enough for you to realize, Oh, that was stupid. That I was reacting that way. It’s almost always like, it’s not, if you, even with me, I would say if I went back and looked at the game tape of every 10 times that I was triggered, I would kind of blame myself, like 90% of the time. And then as a result, then you feel bad about yourself. And so it’s like this thing, but that loop. So then, so then you’re basically just defragging those loops.
Andrew 00:57:16 It reminds me of a way. I explained the benefit of meditation to a friend who was like curious, but he he’s like, yeah, it sounds cool. But like, I don’t get practically like why to do it. Right. Cause it takes time and consistency and blah, blah, blah. And the only way that I was able to land it for him was those like, imagine you’re standing on, you’re standing on a platform at a train station and you’re there. And all of a sudden, you know, you feel that like Russia, wind, that’s kind of like shaking your, you know, blowing through your hair and like hitting your face and you look over and you like, can see this train coming, right. You’re standing on a platform and you just see the train pulling in, you see it coming. And you know, like you have some sense of where that train is going to go. Right. Cause you know what platform you’re on and it’s going to the city and whatever. And he’s like, and I was like, it’s kind of like that, but in your normal life, like you see this thought coming down the tracks and you kind of have that moment of choice. Cause now that you’re aware of it, you have a choice about like, do I get on the train or do I not?
Andrew 00:58:13 And you can stand there and let the train, like you can stand there and watch the doors open on the train. Like you’re in the subway and I let them close and watch the train pull out and you just didn’t get on board. And you still felt all of the rush of the train coming in and you feel the rush of the train coming out, but you didn’t get on board.
Matt 00:58:28 Oh my God. That is so good. Yeah.
Andrew 00:58:32 That’s like the old and like speaking for myself that has saved, like that alone has saved me so many times. Like even last night, there was a moment where I got really triggered and I was like, Oh shit, I got super triggered about some dumb shit. And I was like, I could see it happening. And I was like, okay, all right. And I like, excuse myself for a minute. Just what did the bathroom? And I just like sat there and breathe for a minute. Cause, and I, it was one of the things where you’re like, Oh yeah, there’s that train? That’s the thing happening again. Right. But as you said, if you wait and you just keep breathing and wait, it’s like the train will leave and thank God you’re on a board because I would have ruined the dinner.
Matt 00:59:09 Right. Isn’t that amazing? Isn’t that amazing. And so what was it, your limbic system? You could feel that you were willing to kind of let it go. How did, what was going on in your mind as, as, as you were letting that train come in and go out of the station? What were you?
Andrew 00:59:27 Uh, well, the first thing was I think, because I’ve, I’ve made the mistake of getting on that train before. And, uh, so I, I now know that train and I know where that train goes. And so I think maybe you have, maybe we have to screw it up first, at least once to know where that train goes. And then now I recognize that train coming in and it has a certain sort of like tone to, it has like a, feel like a feeling tone. And I’m like, uh, Oh, there’s a thing. And I feel the pull of it emotionally. I feel it pulling me almost like a, like a gravity. Well, um, and I know I can, I have an association now where like, I know that feeling where it goes. And so, um, that’s what it’s like is I can feel it and I, and then it’s literally just that choice of like, I’m like, okay, you know, what’s happening, you know, what’s happening.
Matt 01:00:12 Okay. So then we’ll go into this then. What can you say since you, what category of trigger was this? Was it about who you are or is it about
Andrew 01:00:23 What is Shawn rotor, her personal, personal worth and value. So it was around like shame.
Matt 01:00:28 Oh, well just one on the book. I, I like, I w that’s the oldest one I had so much, like, it’s interesting. I had a lot of shame. I, and I don’t know why. I dunno, it was like almost cultural or something like that. And we have this joke that like, whenever, if anybody comes, if that topic comes up, I’ll be like, Hey, I read out of a special, like in the clinic today. And, uh, I actually have been collecting a bunch of shame and we put it in garbage bags in the paddock and we’re giving it away for $10. So if you want and joking about it, you know, because, uh it’s because that, so, so then this is, I haven’t really talked about this, but this is what I think is going on is that shame part of the limbic system is hard wired into the fight or flight part of the nervous system, because it’s one of the fight or flight emotions.
Matt 01:01:31 And so then what it can do is it can take you in the middle of a wonderful dinner party, into a moment that, uh, is, is, is crazy, right? Like you can’t imagine, you can imagine a scenario where billowing the dinner party, that is a good idea. Right. And yet you could totally do it. That’s why this is the practice. Just like the practice of meditation, because, and interestingly, apparently Jerry’s, I don’t personally know Jerry Seinfeld, but apparently like he’s real big on meditation. And like, as you start to, and, and what I think my biggest influence of my life now is seeing the wise people who come to see me, I learn more from them than they learn from me. And so they’ll tell me stuff. And the, um, this guy, Dave, uh, from Hawaii, just so he knows who I’m talking about, Pecos, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again, thinking there’s going to be a different outcome.
Matt 01:02:43 And that’s kind of like the, um, the trains coming in, right? The train’s coming into the position and you’re thinking if I below this up, it’s gotta be different from the last 10 times. Right. But then he goes to the definition of wisdom is, and I’ve loved this. I just totally love this. He goes is if there is a new data point that you find is true. And then that means other things that are in your ecosystem are therefore false. You may have to let go of those belief systems. Now, then that as a sort of a mental or psychological construct is amazing, because then next thing you know, you can very quickly start to defrag and let go of belief systems that you used to have that you held totally firmly. Like I had all of these police systems when I was doing, working in ICU in the hospitals that I have, I have totally different police systems now, but I, Oh, I had, it took me 10,000 times of watching that train come into the station and go, okay, I’ve got up. That belief system is not working. So then how do I, how do I, where is my new belief system? What does the what’s, what is truth? And then basically trying to constantly update that in, in search of, of the next direction.
Andrew 01:04:13 I love that. So I actually want to come back now. So we we’ve covered so much interesting ground here around the mind and what’s happening in these types of interventions, whether that’s meditation or ketamine or anything like this. I’d love to actually, I want to circle back to something we touched on earlier. Um, you know, we talked about there’s this ROI to like helping the people who are most vulnerable. Right. And I know that certainly, um, it’s something you’ve been doing lately with your staff, right? You, you told you, I love to hear you talk a little bit about how you’re using the knowledge and the practices that you’ve developed to actually, um, make the people, you know, support the people in your organization and in turn your patients. And that sort of seems like an example of the ROI you were talking about on a, on a larger scale.
Matt 01:04:53 Oh yeah. So it’s interesting. So we, um, you’re so interesting with what’s going on with the whole COVID thing, because everybody, and so to go back to what we’re talking about, fight or flight and fear and all of that stuff, all of that, all of those emotions, all of that stuff is like the volume turned up to 10. So it’s almost like it’s so, so interesting. And so then what decided to do is we’ve been doing IVs on anybody in the staff that wants them pretty much every day. So we’ve been doing IVs and we’ve been doing, um, and then we’ve been doing some of the PTSD work that we do and that’s been, and the feedback that I got, and I wasn’t really looking for, I was just kind of like, well, what happened? And the feedback that I got, it was always in the genre of, Oh, we’re going to be okay.
Matt 01:05:47 It’s like we were going to be okay as an organization. We are going to be okay as we go back and start treating patients and, and helping them. And, um, and so I do, I did it as a test and it was okay. Like, it was amazing to see the sea because as soon as they realized they’re going to be okay, when a patient comes in, the patient’s gonna realize they’re gonna be okay. Cause the staff’s okay. And it’s interesting because I’m trying to get some people to try to help where we’re writing a clinical trial, we’ve proven a couple, and I’d like to go to a real underserved area and, and start to treat people then and do it as a scientific approach and, and help the most disenfranchised because this, uh, this moment is, is so overwhelming whelming from a PTSD front, from a medical front, from an economic front.
Matt 01:06:48 And I feel like it makes us, it would make as much sense in Compton if I could, how to reach, reach it there as where I am. And it’s just have to be different price points. But what I’m I’m hoping to do is that as, as we begin to realize that, uh, there’s more hope as we begin to realize that, like, there’s a chance that we’re going to be okay. Uh, I want everybody in, in society to realize that and it okay. And, and, and once you once, and it’s interesting, like the a hundred monkeys kind of idea of once what’s that I don’t, I don’t know that idea. Oh, so their idea is this like, uh, if it takes, like, it takes like 10 hours to teach a monkey how to do it. Okay. So then, then you bring another monkey in and they’re living together and it takes 10 hours to do from something.
Matt 01:07:41 And so then eventually there’s like 99 monkeys. By the time you get the 99th monkey or the hundredth monkey there, he walks and looks around, sees all the other monkeys do and stuff. And he learns something like in like 10 in one minute. Okay. He just does what they’re all doing. She just knows what they’re doing. He picks it up and then he’s fine. And so then what my idea is is that we’re like, we’re a monkey, like five and six, but then once people begin to realize kind of like a lot of the stuff that I’m talking about, then all of a sudden, because they had, because of the existential next and the idea, they thought that they weren’t going to be okay. They were going to make, it was so overwhelming. They kind of gave up. But when they look around and they realize, Oh, Oh, there’s like a relatively simple construct that you can just start to apply. What I think is going to happen is then maybe 70% of people could do it and be totally fine. And they wouldn’t meet any of these other things because they would just realize that there’s a way to kind of manage the mental, emotional, physical, spiritual state, and just kind of a functional, healthy way and then reset everything.
Andrew 01:08:55 No, I love this because it’s sort of, I think the way you described it to me once before was, you know, we there’s like this idea, this, I think you called it like the existential pain that we all carry right there. There’s this fear that we all have that, you know, there’s, there’s this hunch that it’s all gonna fall apart. Right. There’s this sort of latent low grade persistent anxiety of the next shoe’s about to drop. And at some point, if we’re able to realize like, Oh, and even if that’s true, I’m, I’m okay. It’s all going to be okay that suddenly there’s this, like, there’s like this release and the idea that you can create that for the, some of the most vulnerable people in any system, whether that’s a company, a society, whatever. Um, really just adds, I think, I think the word I heard you use before that I really liked it was like coherence. Right. It increases the overall coherence for the entirety of that system when you can level up the experience of the most disenfranchised, the most at risk.
Matt 01:09:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was, it was amazing to see how helpful it was to start to do IVs and stuff like that and help people and within our practice, which is super small, you know what I mean? Like 20 people. And, but, but, you know, it’s, it’s tricky because there is a, a very interesting conversation now about, um, what’s evidence-based and what’s not evidence-based in medicine. And so there is a, there, there are, there are people are listening and kind of going after people who are appear to be trying to profit or trying to sell something that is, is not, um, doesn’t have evidence. And, and yet most of the approaches that I’m talking about are not, uh, um, FDA approved or, and, and they’re, they’re early. And so, and so it’s very interesting, kind of end the volume on that. The volume on that controversy got turned up to 10 with, with COVID, you know, so, which is why I’m, uh, anything that I do in that, uh, space is going to be part of the IRB approved the success for institutional review board, where people, uh, given a consent form that, uh, has been approved by like an ethics committee and stuff like that.
Matt 01:11:19 But, but it’s, it’s, it’s going to be an interesting, because for example, Google doesn’t Google and the search engine algorithms are not allowing people to market, uh, experimental. Uh, so there’s going to be a very interesting sort of evolution of, uh, voices and medicine. And, uh, and so then, like I said, I, I came from the heart of the medical industrial complex. So I came from, uh, a world that was very, I would say, a similar mindset to somebody like Fowchee, you know what I mean? Or, or, and, and, and, and so then having kind of a conversation since, and then tracking that through, through this moment in time, and then through like new iterations of like who we are, I, I super look forward to because it’s just that same, that same conversation that we were talking about is like kinda further furthering, uh, gathering more data and, and getting better. And, and then, then continually re asking yourself the same questions. Yeah,
Andrew 01:12:38 Yeah, for sure. You know, it’s so interesting, like your, your work, you know, with you, you do a lot of clinical work with individuals, right. Dealing with sometimes it’s the optimization side of things, but other times, as we’ve talked about, it’s dealing with debilitating levels of anxiety or PTSD and, and using this whole suite of tools that you’re, you’ve already got, and that you’re continuing to discover to reset these systems and sort of restore people to their natural wellness, um, is amazing. And I’m really curious as someone, you know, I think a lot about, and, and talk a lot about on this show about, um, you know, what does the future of business, how do we use products and services to not only in live in people, but also to Enlive and organizations in the spaces that we all inhabit together. And I’m curious if you’re seeing anything like this make its way into the organizational level, like almost bio hacking or neuro hacking at the organizational level with some of these cutting edge, uh, groups. Is that, is there something like that going on? Or what are you
Matt 01:13:32 That’s amazing, first of all, if there’s an organization that wants to do that, I would love to do that for your organization. And so then what happened what’d you have to do is you have to do a real good job of having, uh, some things that are protocol oriented, kind of like what we were talking about. And then, and then also creating the space for systems thinking and collaboration. And so then this is the interesting, I have been super interested in like wellness, like
Andrew 01:14:05 Wellness. Yeah.
Matt 01:14:07 And yet it’s, I’ve always thought of it as kind of a con, because it was mainly like in, in medicine, um, if you had to go see the wellness committee, there was a problem, excuse to get rid of people, you know what I mean? And, and so find it a constructive way to support people is, is going to be crucial. And I think that there are a bunch of elders of what I’m talking about that could be relevant into like a corporate kind of identity that would be, that would help people be more functional and then less in fear and less and less than kind of fight or flight. Cause the lesson I’m in fight or flight, I am the way more effective. I’m going to be, yeah, you’re more creative. You’re going to be more connected. You’re can communicate better. And yet there has been a, there’s a little bit of a fear of if I, um, spend a whole bunch of time doing that, I’m not going to be efficient at getting work done and stuff like that.
Matt 01:15:18 It’s like a double edged sword. But what I think is going to happen is, is there are going to be organizations and groups that are going to start to deploy these and then what’s going to happen is, and I, and I’m convinced about this. So my hypothesis is that over time I’m going to be cheaper and I will compete against insurance companies at like anything. I’m just going to start with like easy things. So like for example, the, the one that I would, one of them, the first one I would do would be like, okay, I’ll compete against insurance companies for total knee replacement, because I think what I would do would be cheaper than total knee replacement. And so then you just start to do some data on yeah, I analyze that. And so then what will happen as, as organizations begin to deploy this genre of technology, they will quickly find out what the ROI is on, on each of 60 different categories.
Matt 01:16:22 And so then all of a sudden, yup. You may see big organizations let’s find out, Oh, okay, well, this actually is, is, is totally gonna pay off because, uh, it, and, and, and, and each that’s like 200 less, there’s a whole bunch of data points that each person could have. And so it’s going to take time to develop different technology, to improve whatever the problems are. Um, and then to track those outcomes and see what happens with efficiency. But to some extent, anytime I’m an organization seems to care, it’s like rubber. Well, like in the early days, it was like, don’t be evil. If you have a feeling that organization super cares about you, then you’re probably going to do an amazing job
Andrew 01:17:14 Of work. Yeah. You’re going to work that much harder. It’s interesting. I wonder, I wonder part of my brain goes like, huh, I can, I can imagine a future, like where this stuff is available within the sort of the spectrum of corporate wellness in the same way that like mindfulness has moved into almost mainstream corporate wellness. Right. That I think I get the, totally see this sort of biohacking stuff, getting towards that, towards that same level where you can imagine, you know, the Googles of the world, the apples of the world, having these things available for people. Um, because they, you know, I think over time, we’ll see. I mean, we don’t know, we don’t have the full on studies yet, which is why, hopefully we get some, uh, and we can create some studies, but I think we’ll see the data. Um, I basically share your hypothesis that the data will prove out that like, this is so worth it.
Matt 01:18:01 Right. Right. And so then we just have to find the right package of things that are relatively inexpensive, uh, that are relatively high reward. And, and, and then deploying those in, uh, in a, in a organization. And then when people start to get better, that is that Uplevel. So whole organization and the consciousness of everybody is like, Oh, we’re like, it’s almost the same thing I was talking about as a, for an individual. But everybody in the organization starts to realize, Oh, we’re going to be okay. And so then, and so then we just have to figure out what the protocols are and what the, what the price points are to begin to deploy that in for large groups of people. And then you begin to say, Oh, okay, well, we could deploy it as soon as you can have that genre thinking, then we could do that at Apple, but we could also do that in the inner city. Yes.
Andrew 01:18:59 That as we move forward into this future, there’s going to be so many of these new, new treatments available. Right. And there’s going to be new studies coming out. And, um, we’re, this is a little bit of the wild West for people, which is exciting on the one hand, it can also be overwhelming for people. It can be confusing, scary all of these things. Um, and whether we’re talking about some of the treatments that we’re talking about in this conversation, like the Academy and stuff, or anything else that’s going to come out, like all the COVID treatments that are under development, et cetera, et cetera. So how should listeners actually evaluate studies or medical claims that they come across? Because most people are not trained scientists and we’re kind of out in the wild West here. So how would, how would you recommend that a listener evaluate a medical claim that they see, uh, in terms of like, thinking about the quality of the studies or otherwise basically trying to like figure out what’s the good stuff and what’s quackery,
Matt 01:19:53 Right. So that’s a phenomenal, that’s a phenomenal, good question. I think it’s experiences like this. People can kind of hear at least where I’m coming from the, of, of where I’m coming from. And I didn’t dig too deep, scientifically into much today, but then as you, so you’re going to be able to take that. Um,
Andrew 01:20:19 Normally there’s this
Matt 01:20:22 Long peer review process for trials and what’s happening is people are publishing, um, work, and then we’re going back and looking at it and going, Hey, that wasn’t as good as we thought it was. So for example, like with COVID, there was a drug that came out a drug combination of hydroxychloroquine and there’s the through Mycenae, uh, mature two drugs. And the concept was, if you looked at the early papers, it seems like this drug is a home run and it’s going to solve everything. And, uh, it wasn’t that by any stretch of the imagination, I think. And so there was problems with that study. And so then, uh, on my podcast, I started to interview people who started to criticize, uh, that research a little bit and then start to have a conversation around it. Uh, I had another one recently where we talked about drug testing, that’s happening.
Matt 01:21:18 Cause there’s a whole bunch of problems with that, and there’s not an easy way for a lay person to do it, but I think there’s a lot of great voices in the integrative space. And I think they’re starting to like Mark Hyman, I think has this as a, a great voice. And he’s someone you can listen to. I think a lot of the influencers are great because they’re finding people out there that are doing things and, uh, and then shining a light on them. And, um, it’s a social and it’s a medical and a scientific, and it’s a collaborative kind of process where the whole, world’s kind of doing this together right now.
Andrew 01:22:01 We’re, we’re literally
Matt 01:22:04 Early making it happen. And science is being shared and people that were in silos or all of a sudden those are all coming down. And, and, and, and what I think is going to happen is that there’s a friend of mines, uh, developing a platform. That’s gonna try to answer this question. And so what’s going to happen is there’s gonna be an evolving technology, evolving experiences that we have that began to bring data in I’m in Silicon Valley. So they always say who he, who has the most data wins. And so then, uh, and so it’s, it’s going to be an evolving and kind of nuanced thing. I wish I had a better answer than that
Andrew 01:22:45 To, to resources that, uh, people, listeners might find useful on the sort of question about evaluating medical claims that these are ones I just recently came across that I don’t, I can’t fully endorse them yet, but they come from sources that I trust. So I think they’re probably really good, but I haven’t, I can’t fully sign off on them yet, but worth checking out. Uh, one is a book called bad science by a guy named, I think it’s Ben Goldacre. And then the other one, there’s a, another doctor who’s has a great podcast that I really like, uh, in addition to mats, his name is Peter Attia. And, uh, he has a series on studying studies. And it’s basically when you’re thinking about how to, uh, evaluate medical studies and scientific studies that you come across so that when you see some medical claim, you can kind of think for yourself about how, how, how legit is it basically.
Andrew 01:23:34 So we’ll link to all that in the show notes, but those are two that I have come up that came up in my research for this conversation that I wanted to at least mention. Yeah, he’s really good. Peter is really good. Yeah. I really like his stuff. He’s he’s got some great stuff. Great podcasts as well. Um, so a couple of rapid fire questions for you. Um, the first one is, uh, you know, you talked to, you talked earlier in our conversation about wanting to make a certain meaningful impact and how you, you, you feel like you’re starting to, and you can start to see, see that, see that, uh, that arc in your, in your work, what does that impact you want to have?
Andrew 01:24:15 I want to make a really big impact in the space of depression, anxiety, PTSD. And I want to make people aware that they have way more control over those things than they thought they did. And then I want to basically introduce the concept of some Shondra of a practice that they can deploy to make that dream a reality. I love it. I love it. Uh, and then in recent memory, and that could be a week, it can be a year, whatever. What is a small change that you’ve made, that’s had an outsized impact on you or your life, or how you show up such, you’re saying I do like two or three small changes. Like every single day. It’s like, it’s like constantly experimenting. I love it. And, and, and I think that maybe that maybe that is it’s it’s that, and, you know, I was thinking of this story, there was a, um, there was the, you know, how people can get an ulcer in their stomach. I think. Yeah. It’s a, it’s like bacterial. Right. It’s perfect. So what happened is the idea was that it was from too much acid and, um, stuff like that. And, but the idea was definitely not that a spec Ariel, and in fact, everybody thought it was like stress and things like that. So the sky, this guy
Matt 01:26:04 Had this idea, that was a very alternate idea, which is those that, Oh, it could be bacteria. And so it was, it was. And so then he had a patient who had that bacteria and then he had knocked collated himself with it. And he got an ulcer. Now what happens is that, that was such an out of the box idea that, um, they tried to kick them out of like the society gastroenterologists that he was in. And, um, because it was just an anathema to them. And, uh, but he ends up obviously winning a Nobel prize because he totally changes our way that we, we think about gastroenterologist neurology from then on. And so then I, my little thing that I’m trying to do is to basically keep my ears and eyes open for noticing truth, and then fall doggedly, following that. So that, because I’m, I’m, I’m hopeful that I will continue to do that.
Matt 01:27:12 And then in doing so there’s a whole bunch of things that are currently dogma that will not be dogma in the future. And so then then finding, finding that out, because as soon as you find that out and then change your consciousness around that, then that leads to super human growth because when we’re trapped and dogmas, we’re super dysfunctional. And now that it’s hard to do that because you’re contextualizing this problem that we’re talking about, which is this, that the data. And then what happens when you’re starting to look at the science is, is that there’s an enormous amount of bias. So when you say, what is quackery, there are certain people that have a bias that anything that’s not what they believe is quackery. And so then, so then it’s a new one. Then now that’s the reason that the practice of medicine is so awesome, because then it’s just like, I would, my approach is going to be new with this new person that comes in, because you’re kind of figuring that out. But as you do clinically, you start to get like, um, a certain amount of wisdom that helps you navigate your way through complex complex situations. And so then, so then that’s how, I guess that’s, that is what I’m spending like a hundred percent of my time trying to do. I love that. I love that sort of riffing off that. What is, if you could have everyone listening to this, start to ask themselves one question, what would that question be?
Matt 01:29:00 Okay. So then this is what I was going to say. This is, well, this is what I would say. So then, um, given, given a, given, given a situation, the question is, what is the funniest way to respond to this? If you’re asking yourself, like I I’ve been hearing, um, like I’ve been watching comedians in cars with coffee and stuff like that, you know? Okay. So what happens is, is comedians are just sitting there and they’re asking what’s the funniest, like the funniest response to this turns out the funniest response has always going to be the least triggered and the most true response. So if you’re trying to like hack truth, you’re, you may actually get closer to it from comedians than philosophers. I love it. And then it also has the side effect of keeping you with like, out of fight or flight, which isn’t, which is keep you in the super high performance state. I love it.
Andrew 01:30:06 I love it. We’re laughing and kicking ass at the same time.
Matt 01:30:10 That’s that’s I want that to be my new tagline. That’s perfect. All right. Well, Matt, this has been
Andrew 01:30:16 So much fun. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Uh, just in closing, where can people reach out to you if they want to learn more about you or your practice or
Matt 01:30:25 Contribute to what you’re up to in any way? Yeah, so the podcast is at bio reset podcast and then our website’s bio reset.com and, uh, we’re in, um, Campbell, California, Northern California, and would be delighted. You can call and, uh, talk to us, figure out what we’re up to, and we’d love to connect with you.
Andrew 01:30:46 Awesome. And we’ll link to all that stuff in the show notes, but Matt, thank you so much for being here and,
Matt 01:30:51 Oh, I see. You’re the best.